Podcast: Should We Solve This or Schedule Another Meeting?

Untitled – September 25, 2026

00:00:00 Frank Butler: Yes. Business is business time. Hello busy bodies. Welcome to a long overdue episode of the Busyness Paradox. Uh, the your most regularly irregular podcast currently out there. I’m Frank Butler here with Paul Harvey.

00:00:33 Paul: Good day. Frank.

00:00:35 Frank Butler: Good day Paul. And we’re just super excited to be here together again. Paul has been dealing with the joys of being an editor of a journal that’s dealt with some fun times and.

00:00:48 Paul: Yeah. What

00:00:51 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:00:51 Paul: a ride.

00:00:54 Frank Butler: That’s, I think, um, underselling what he’s had to the joys of what he’s having to deal with. Um, it’s just it’s just been it’s been a crazy busy time. I think just generally, um, it feels busier than ever.

00:01:10 Paul: Yeah, I think I’ve come to the point in life where I’ve made come to terms with that, that like life just always is going to feel busy. And then you look back and it’s like, no, that was just normal life. But in the moment, it always feels like there’s

00:01:26 Frank Butler: It’s

00:01:26 Paul: too

00:01:27 Frank Butler: almost,

00:01:27 Paul: much to do and too much going on.

00:01:28 Frank Butler: it’s almost paradoxical.

00:01:31 Paul: Paradoxical in a sense. Yes, someone should do a show on this.

00:01:37 Frank Butler: And here we are on the

00:01:38 Paul: Starting

00:01:38 Frank Butler: business.

00:01:39 Paul: in twenty twenty one. Ideally.

00:01:43 Frank Butler: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And here we are um,

00:01:47 Paul: Here we are.

00:01:47 Frank Butler: five, five years later. Has it been five years already?

00:01:50 Paul: I think so, I think November twenty twenty one. So going on five years and

00:01:53 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:01:54 Paul: we’ll actually sort of be didn’t plan it this way, but kind of be Recording a celebratory five year anniversary episode in Live at, uh.

00:02:05 Frank Butler: Saint Pete

00:02:05 Paul: Where

00:02:05 Frank Butler: Beach,

00:02:06 Paul: is it,

00:02:06 Frank Butler: Florida.

00:02:06 Paul: Saint Pete? Thank you. Yes. Saint Pete Beach, Florida

00:02:09 Frank Butler: Holy

00:02:09 Paul: in

00:02:09 Frank Butler: cow!

00:02:10 Paul: a few weeks. Yeah.

00:02:11 Frank Butler: Holy cow! How about that? I didn’t even think about that. But that’s actually

00:02:13 Paul: No.

00:02:14 Frank Butler: pretty true. We’ll be pretty much five years. And as of the release of this episode, uh, it will probably have already had over ten thousand downloads too, which is something

00:02:22 Paul: Yeah.

00:02:22 Frank Butler: that is a pretty big milestone just generally for podcasts. And, uh, and I think our last two episodes have had tremendous success so far. Um.

00:02:35 Paul: Yeah. It’s not really sending us the right signals, by the way, folks that like, we do random episodes

00:02:43 Frank Butler: And we

00:02:43 Paul: months

00:02:43 Frank Butler: do better than.

00:02:44 Paul: apart and they do way better than anything we did when we were putting them out on like a bi weekly basis.

00:02:50 Frank Butler: Yeah. What does that say? What, what does that say about our podcast?

00:02:55 Paul: They want to hear it, but not too much of it, I don’t know. It goes against everything they tell you, like all the algorithmic stuff that you need to be on a predictable cadence and all this stuff like, well, it has not been our experience.

00:03:08 Frank Butler: Not at all. And not only that, like, like I said, I mean, it’s kind of ironic. Our last two episodes have had significantly more downloads than almost any of our other episodes, except for the one that Paul likes to sign for his, uh, his OB class, his undergrad OB class, which

00:03:24 Paul: Yeah.

00:03:25 Frank Butler: has done very well

00:03:26 Paul: Okay.

00:03:26 Frank Butler: for us too.

00:03:27 Paul: Kind of goosing those numbers by forcing it on students.

00:03:32 Frank Butler: But the irony is it’s not by that much, right? Like that episode is like at six hundred and something downloads and our last two are like five hundred and something each. So it’s not like

00:03:39 Paul: Right.

00:03:39 Frank Butler: it’s a tremendous boost just from you, you assigning that for your class, which is a good sign for us, right? Like that’s, I think that’s, that’s

00:03:48 Paul: Yeah.

00:03:48 Frank Butler: good.

00:03:49 Paul: I mean, that was that episode I used for that was like our second episode ever or something like that. So yeah, that was back when we would put stuff out and maybe six people would accidentally download it. We weren’t a known entity.

00:04:03 Frank Butler: Yeah. And I probably need to go back and leverage some of the new tools today to create better keywords for it and such, because that’s the one thing that I think has certainly helped today. We’re not going to get into AI really today, but AI has certainly helped with the show notes, the keywords. And I think that has been a big part of some of the success that we are seeing with these newer episodes, with the downloads and the attraction.

00:04:32 Paul: That’s the irony. I’d spend days on that stuff per episode, you know? Now AI does it instantly, far better than we ever could. Okay.

00:04:41 Frank Butler: I think the big thing is that you and I spend quite a bit of time going back and forth on what the titles should be, and

00:04:47 Paul: Yes.

00:04:48 Frank Butler: we do have AI help us with the starting point.

00:04:50 Paul: Yep.

00:04:51 Frank Butler: We eventually converge on

00:04:53 Paul: Yep.

00:04:53 Frank Butler: something and you know, the last episode, the semantically Empty, was one that was an interesting road to get to that title, considering it was all about corporate BS and, uh, you know.

00:05:07 Paul: We’re a little afraid it was going to be too obscure, but it’s done fine. So.

00:05:10 Frank Butler: Yep, it sure has. Well, what’s really funny is that we, we’ve become a bigger sort of entity than we are accustomed to. I think SMA has done a good job of helping

00:05:22 Paul: Yeah.

00:05:23 Frank Butler: us out with that. We are now

00:05:24 Paul: Mhm.

00:05:24 Frank Butler: sort of a staple at SMA. Uh,

00:05:27 Paul: Mhm.

00:05:27 Frank Butler: we have a PD.

00:05:29 Paul: That’s me being a a academic conference for the

00:05:33 Frank Butler: Yes.

00:05:33 Paul: listeners who don’t know what the hell we’re talking about.

00:05:35 Frank Butler: Southern Management Association.

00:05:36 Paul: Mhm.

00:05:37 Frank Butler: It’s, uh, it’s been very good to us. And, uh, we’re sponsored for the second year in a row. Uh, what we’ll say is Texas State University has stepped forward and sponsored us there. Again, those proceeds go to help support the conference, not the podcast. And that’s what we’re

00:05:54 Paul: Right.

00:05:54 Frank Butler: here for. And our guest from that is going to be Jake Waddingham. Uh, he’s a professor at Texas State. And I’m really excited about that topic. I’m not going to spill the beans on it here, but I think it’s going to be something of superb interest for many others. So.

00:06:11 Paul: Yeah. It’s new territory for us. Um, that particular topic, you know, obviously related to our general theme, but, uh, in a, in a different direction than or a, a different, uh, application, I guess of what we usually talk about than we’ve seen on the show before. So looking forward to it.

00:06:28 Frank Butler: I think that’s a great way. It’s a different application. I do think given that we are a business podcast broadly, you know, that’s that’s useful. And here’s another thing too. I had a bunch of t shirts made that we are in.

00:06:44 Paul: Ah, awesome.

00:06:45 Frank Butler: Yeah, they are good, aren’t they? And we are intending on giving them out at s m a. And I’ve got stickers too that are actually pretty freaking awesome too. So.

00:06:56 Paul: Will we have one of those t shirt guns that they use at like sports things? That’s what I need to know now.

00:07:01 Frank Butler: I wonder if we can find one. I bet we can.

00:07:05 Paul: And where do you get something like that?

00:07:06 Frank Butler: Do it

00:07:06 Paul: If

00:07:06 Frank Butler: at

00:07:06 Paul: anyone

00:07:07 Frank Butler: the

00:07:07 Paul: knows.

00:07:07 Frank Butler: meeting. At the business meeting, we’re shooting off the t shirt gun as we’re talking about the business

00:07:14 Paul: Take

00:07:14 Frank Butler: of.

00:07:14 Paul: someone out in the back row. Sorry.

00:07:17 Frank Butler: I love it, I love it. We need to look into a t shirt gun. Um, but you know, anyway, very exciting things are coming up. We figured we needed to do an episode before and we’re going to try to do a little bit better. I think Paul’s found a groove. I’m starting to find a groove. And I’m going to have another announcement, hopefully at SMA that I can make at that point. It will be very exciting for me to share, uh, personal

00:07:44 Paul: Do I

00:07:44 Frank Butler: thoughts.

00:07:44 Paul: know about this?

00:07:45 Frank Butler: Uh, yes you do, but I probably should have reminded you before we started recording. I’ll tell you after after

00:07:52 Paul: All right.

00:07:52 Frank Butler: we’re done. So we’ll go with that. Um,

00:07:54 Paul: Okay.

00:07:55 Frank Butler: now, uh, we enjoyed the, the semantically episode so much. And actually what’s been fun about it is, is I’ve been exchanging emails with Shane Luttrell, who was the author of that paper quite a bit because it’s sort of created a, a thing of its own. And I’ve seen follow ups from this going on. And so it’s been it’s been developing its own following, so to speak. And we’re seeing that being ripped off of. And today’s topic is sort of an extension of that. And, uh, the, the label on this and I will be, uh, clear here. I came across this on Instagram and I figured we’re going to try to see if we can come up with this, but it’s called batshit crazy corporate one liners. And it’s definitely a good extension of the semantically empty or the corporate bullshit episode in that sense. And so the way it’s going to be is I’m going to kind of give the scenario, Paul, your objective is to try to figure out what would you say in said scenario. And then I will show you, or I will then share the actual one liner that is applied or attached to that particular scenario.

00:09:20 Paul: Now, these taken from like real life experiences or these just kind of like jokey things that are reminiscent of the real thing.

00:09:29 Frank Butler: Okay, so I, I believe that they are taken from real scenarios, but then the one liners are attached

00:09:36 Paul: Mhm.

00:09:36 Frank Butler: after the fact, right? This is

00:09:38 Paul: I gotcha.

00:09:38 Frank Butler: not

00:09:38 Paul: Yep.

00:09:39 Frank Butler: something you would technically maybe say to your boss, but they’re still

00:09:43 Paul: Yep.

00:09:43 Frank Butler: fun. And

00:09:44 Paul: Gotcha.

00:09:44 Frank Butler: so, uh, the first one says you’re, you’re given your third highest Priority before ten a m. What would you say in that setting?

00:09:58 Paul: Before ten a m.

00:10:00 Frank Butler: Your third highest priority.

00:10:02 Paul: So when you say third highest, you mean like ranked third or like this is now your highest priority,

00:10:06 Frank Butler: It’s

00:10:06 Paul: but it’s

00:10:06 Frank Butler: now

00:10:07 Paul: the

00:10:07 Frank Butler: your

00:10:07 Paul: third time

00:10:07 Frank Butler: highest

00:10:07 Paul: you’ve

00:10:07 Frank Butler: priority.

00:10:07 Paul: been told that.

00:10:08 Frank Butler: All three

00:10:08 Paul: Okay.

00:10:08 Frank Butler: are probably equivalent and priorities, but.

00:10:11 Paul: Okay. So the fact that I haven’t started on the first two higher priorities is not a problem then.

00:10:18 Frank Butler: Probably not. No, you

00:10:20 Paul: Good.

00:10:20 Frank Butler: probably

00:10:20 Paul: That’s

00:10:20 Frank Butler: haven’t.

00:10:20 Paul: what I’d say then. Then I’ll make that my response.

00:10:25 Frank Butler: Yeah. So the response here is amazing. Which emergency would you like me to ignore?

00:10:31 Paul: All right.

00:10:32 Frank Butler: And it says thrilled to learn we have several first places. So that’s actually kind of funny on that one. This.

00:10:42 Paul: That’s a good point.

00:10:43 Frank Butler: Yeah. Right. Um, this is this one. I just, this still has me cracking up, but it says for when someone asks you why you didn’t account for a decision made in a meeting you were not invited to. What would be that response?

00:11:00 Paul: Why didn’t I account for decision that was made at a meeting I wasn’t invited to? Probably for the same reason that I wasn’t invited to the meeting and not important enough. I don’t know.

00:11:12 Frank Butler: They said, perfect, I’ll just consult the information I was never given. And then

00:11:16 Paul: Mhm.

00:11:16 Frank Butler: the little aside caption to it, which was really funny, was my clairvoyance is still in beta.

00:11:23 Paul: Yeah, it’s better than my response. That’s good.

00:11:25 Frank Butler: Well, you know, it’s one of those things that it’s so true. It’s like, how many times have you been involved in a situation? It’s like, well, why didn’t you say this? We

00:11:33 Paul: Right.

00:11:34 Frank Butler: covered it in this meeting. It’s like, well, I wasn’t in that meeting.

00:11:37 Paul: It’s the one meeting room I haven’t gotten around to wiretapping yet. Damn it. Like having

00:11:42 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:11:42 Paul: another conference room.

00:11:44 Frank Butler: Well, you know, and it’s been funny. Is that the wiretapping? That’s good. I know that I’ve dealt with this scenario multiple times. I’ll be on a board of an organization, and some other committee has made a decision. I wasn’t in that. And we’re working on this like the strategic plan or something. It’s like, well, why didn’t you account for this? Should I have known

00:12:01 Paul: MM.

00:12:01 Frank Butler: about that? I mean, did you want to share that by chance, you know?

00:12:08 Paul: It seems like one of those scenarios that’s ripe for the. Oh, I wish I had thought to say that like, well, I don’t know. Why didn’t you tell me about that? Like, but you never think of that in the moment. You’re like, oh, I’m sorry.

00:12:18 Frank Butler: Right. All right. This, this one’s actually really good because this is also very true. Um, somebody says you need to just own it. So by that I mean, um, you know, you’re given a task and you’re told to own it. However, you still need to get the approval for other people.

00:12:46 Paul: Perhaps rent is the word you’re looking for here. You rent that, buddy?

00:12:56 Frank Butler: That’s actually that’s actually pretty good. This one says. Absolutely. AM I empowered or just responsible? And I was

00:13:02 Paul: HMM.

00:13:02 Frank Butler: like.

00:13:05 Paul: That cuts the heart of it.

00:13:06 Frank Butler: Right. Um, and then the little funny little additional caption is just checking which version of ownership we purchased. I think that goes to your rent comment.

00:13:17 Paul: Yeah, it gets into my renting territory there.

00:13:20 Frank Butler: So you were, you’re in the, you’re in the wheelhouse here, right? You’re

00:13:22 Paul: Yeah, yeah.

00:13:22 Frank Butler: in it. But man, I was like, that is so true. It’s like, oh, you just need to own it. I know people have been told this. You just, you gotta own it. It’s yours. Well, I still need

00:13:31 Paul: Yeah.

00:13:31 Frank Butler: the approval of your boss. You and

00:13:34 Paul: I

00:13:34 Frank Butler: this.

00:13:34 Paul: can’t do a damn thing about it without someone. Say so. Gotcha.

00:13:37 Frank Butler: This is like Project management one hundred and one, too, right? It’s like project

00:13:40 Paul: Yeah

00:13:40 Frank Butler: managers

00:13:41 Paul: yeah

00:13:41 Frank Butler: have zero authority over anything,

00:13:42 Paul: yeah

00:13:43 Frank Butler: but they can own it, right?

00:13:45 Paul: yeah. Removing like a wedding planner or something. You don’t actually get to make the decision, but you know what the right one is.

00:13:53 Frank Butler: That’s right, that’s right. Um, I guess you’re just advisory at that point. At that point.

00:13:58 Paul: Yeah.

00:13:58 Frank Butler: Yeah. All right. Uh, for this is this is the busiest paradox in a nutshell here for when three weeks of work suddenly develops a forty eight hour deadline.

00:14:15 Paul: MM. My mind’s going to that saying like, the best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago. The second best time is today. It’s like that best time to do this was forty eight and a forty eight hour span three weeks ago. Second best time is right now.

00:14:32 Frank Butler: Right now. Yep. No, I think that’s that’s pretty good. And it says I can absolutely have that done by Friday. Which Friday are we emotionally attached to? Um.

00:14:46 Paul: Which Friday are you emotionally attached to?

00:14:49 Frank Butler: That’s pretty good. And it makes

00:14:50 Paul: It’s a good

00:14:50 Frank Butler: me

00:14:50 Paul: angle.

00:14:50 Frank Butler: think of, uh, Douglas Adams, uh, who again, one of my favorite authors wrote The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy series or the the misnamed trilogy. It’s like five books. And then, uh, uh, Dirk Gently’s holistic detective agency. He’s, he sadly was taken far too young. But the thing he always said is that he’s like, I love deadlines. I love the sound that they make as they go whooshing by.

00:15:18 Paul: Yeah, I’ve heard that quote before, and I think at some point I knew that was he was the source of it. But yeah, I totally forgot about that.

00:15:26 Frank Butler: It’s great. And I think it applies perfectly to these scenarios

00:15:30 Paul: Yep.

00:15:30 Frank Butler: where you’re told, hey, we’re going to need that in forty eight hours. We’ve been working on it three weeks. It’s not saying that it’s not being worked on, but now suddenly we’re given a deadline that is unreasonable, right? And,

00:15:41 Paul: Yep.

00:15:41 Frank Butler: uh, gosh, and that feels too real in a lot of cases too. I mean,

00:15:46 Paul: It does.

00:15:46 Frank Butler: and this is different than for folks like me who are a little bit ADHD, who work better under pressure. That’s not what this is. This is one of those like, you’re given a forty eight hour deadline to get something done that is a multi-week project or activity. So yeah, that’s where we are on that one. And then the little sub caption was, love an ambitious little calendar. Whatever. All right. So the next one is for when the fifth meeting about the problem ends with scheduling the sixth meeting about the problem.

00:16:32 Paul: Oh my God. There’s too many ways to go with that. All I can think of is that email that I sent you or the screenshot. Anyway, a couple weeks ago of the the policy on planning.

00:16:48 Frank Butler: Oh my

00:16:48 Paul: What

00:16:48 Frank Butler: God.

00:16:48 Paul: was it the the policy on updating policies has been updated, like

00:16:52 Frank Butler: Oh my God. Yes! Oh

00:16:53 Paul: the meeting

00:16:53 Frank Butler: my God.

00:16:53 Paul: for the deadline has been scheduled. And like, I don’t know, I’m trying to like merge those two things into something funny and failing miserably.

00:17:02 Frank Butler: But I remember exactly what you were talking about, man. You had. It was. It was freaking brilliant. Um. God, I’m trying to look for it right now because it was that funny. And I probably won’t find it in a timely fashion, but. Holy cow. Oh, yeah. No, it’s right here. Oh,

00:17:17 Paul: Okay.

00:17:17 Frank Butler: I got it, I got it. The university policy on developing and updating policies has been updated to provide clear expectations around updating policies and specified lines of responsibility and authority.

00:17:34 Paul: Just give that a minute to breathe.

00:17:37 Frank Butler: I think I would have to read it again.

00:17:39 Paul: Yeah, yeah, I think it deserves another one.

00:17:43 Frank Butler: All right, I’ll recontextualize this. Paul sent this to me as a screenshot. And

00:17:49 Paul: From an actual email

00:17:49 Frank Butler: this

00:17:50 Paul: that

00:17:50 Frank Butler: is an actual.

00:17:51 Paul: I received.

00:17:54 Frank Butler: Uh, and it was from your VP of Student life.

00:17:57 Paul: Yeah, I want to like name names or anything. I get the guy like, I want to publicly shame the poor guy who had to write this, or at least who had to send this email. He was just doing his job. Oh, God.

00:18:09 Frank Butler: Okay, here it goes again. The university policy on developing and updating policies has been updated to provide clearer expectations around updating policies and specified lines of responsibility and authority. HMM. That is. Oh.

00:18:29 Paul: You have to, like, read it a number of times just to get past the first few words. Like there’s a policy and updating policies and wait, it’s been updated. Where’s the policy authorizing that update to the policy that updates policies. And this is chaos.

00:18:45 Frank Butler: It’s like policy inception.

00:18:47 Paul: Yes, it’s all policy all the way down.

00:18:51 Frank Butler: Oh my goodness. And then you sent me a really funny YouTube video. We kept it grey. Um,

00:18:58 Paul: Oh, for the Futurama clip.

00:18:59 Frank Butler: yes.

00:19:00 Paul: Yes.

00:19:01 Frank Butler: Uh, maybe I can squeeze that in here at some point,

00:19:04 Paul: Yeah.

00:19:04 Frank Butler: but.

00:19:05 Paul: I try to recite it, but I would completely butcher it.

00:19:08 Frank Butler: Let’s see if I can play it and if we can hear it in here. Let me see. Don’t quote me. Regulations. I co-chair the committee that reviewed the recommendation to revise the color of the book that regulations in. We kept it gray.

00:19:25 Paul: Well done. I’m kind of impressed how how fast you pulled that up and got that in there.

00:19:32 Frank Butler: Man. You know,

00:19:34 Paul: Mhm.

00:19:34 Frank Butler: it’s. I’m sorry, folks, that was. uh. There you go. Uh.

00:19:43 Paul: When I went on a little detour there, but.

00:19:45 Frank Butler: Uh, well, you know, it’s funny because it applies to this. And and of course,

00:19:48 Paul: Yeah.

00:19:48 Frank Butler: um, we have a UTC, a committee on committees, which I think

00:19:52 Paul: Yeah,

00:19:52 Frank Butler: is,

00:19:53 Paul: yeah.

00:19:53 Frank Butler: you know, oh, just.

00:19:54 Paul: It’s one of those fun things that went from being a joke to like pretty much standard reality. Now, at least in universities, it seems like every school has a committee on committees.

00:20:03 Frank Butler: Yes. Uh, whatever. It’s the same thing as, I guess, having a policy committee to update policies on the

00:20:10 Paul: Yeah,

00:20:10 Frank Butler: update. Uh, whatever. But

00:20:12 Paul: yeah.

00:20:12 Frank Butler: yes, this is, this goes back for the fifth meeting about the problems with scheduling the sixth meeting about the problem, which you brought up a, it’s not really that much of a Segway kind of fit really nicely. And the one liner was, should we solve this or would everyone prefer another meeting?

00:20:31 Paul: Let’s have a five point five meeting to determine whether we’d rather solve it or have another meeting.

00:20:39 Frank Butler: I will say, at one time I was on a committee to do strategic planning, and the chair of that committee was having us meet every week for the entirety of, of a of a semester. And I was like, I was like, can you just give me like three weeks and let me just take it and work on it a little bit.

00:20:56 Paul: I could just do this. Like, we can just do the thing.

00:20:59 Frank Butler: Because,

00:20:59 Paul: Yeah.

00:20:59 Frank Butler: you know, the meetings had devolved into things that, that were more tactical in nature and really more department tactics. And, you know, and it’s like, I agree with the ability to, you know, maybe communicate some of these things, the importance of some of these things. But there’s other committees that that belongs in, you know, and.

00:21:19 Paul: That’s probably one of the ways that busy work start like things that gives rise to busy work and like mission creep and stuff like that. When you have a standing meeting for a thing that is not a recurring event, like if you do something every Friday. Yeah, it makes sense to have a weekly meeting every Thursday or something to prepare for it. But if it’s kind of like a a single far off goal that may like, you can make the argument that like the recurring standing meeting keeps everybody sort of on track or at least check in or whatever. But yeah, if it’s not necessary, then you’re just going to get a group of people. Saying stuff and

00:22:03 Frank Butler: Yeah,

00:22:04 Paul: ill

00:22:04 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:22:04 Paul: advised, uh, initiatives start sounding like good ideas and yeah.

00:22:09 Frank Butler: Exactly. And, you know, at the end of the day, I definitely appreciate people’s ability or needs to sort of share those ideas. And it’s a setting which it can work, but it’s also the problem sometimes of not having more of a structured approach and stuff like that. And,

00:22:25 Paul: Yeah, yeah.

00:22:26 Frank Butler: you know.

00:22:26 Paul: It’s like structure, but you’re not structuring anything. You’re.

00:22:29 Frank Butler: Correct.

00:22:30 Paul: Yeah.

00:22:30 Frank Butler: Yep, yep. And then there’s the little, little tail on this is the calendar is absolutely crushing it.

00:22:40 Paul: I love,

00:22:40 Frank Butler: Oh.

00:22:40 Paul: I love, I love the calendar snark.

00:22:44 Frank Butler: Here, here’s a good one for you for when you’re completely normal, email thread suddenly develops executive seating. I’m

00:22:54 Paul: Executive

00:22:55 Frank Butler: like,

00:22:55 Paul: seating.

00:22:55 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:22:57 Paul: I’m not I’m not familiar with the phrase.

00:22:59 Frank Butler: I think in this case, it’s the addition of bosses onto the emails.

00:23:04 Paul: Oh. Oh, okay. So like an ongoing thread suddenly gets joined in by the higher ups.

00:23:13 Frank Butler: Yep.

00:23:14 Paul: HMM. That can be awkward.

00:23:16 Frank Butler: That’s just generally that’s awkward, right?

00:23:18 Paul: Yeah. I’m having flashbacks now to corporate days. And yeah, that that happens sometimes.

00:23:26 Frank Butler: And sometimes it’s a necessity. Right. There are certain scenarios that I, I will include somebody’s boss on an email just because I know that I’m more likely to get a response if that person’s boss is on there. And I’ve learned this even in the academic setting. And that’s not, you know, it’s just what it is. But the response

00:23:51 Paul: Oh,

00:23:51 Frank Butler: to

00:23:51 Paul: I

00:23:51 Frank Butler: this.

00:23:51 Paul: see what you’re saying. Yeah, yeah. So they see that the boss is on there now. Yeah, yeah.

00:23:54 Frank Butler: Yep. You got it. Yep. But the response on this one was, of course, should I answer now or wait until everyone’s boss is copied?

00:24:04 Paul: So the bosses get back to us on this.

00:24:08 Frank Butler: Happy to wait for the full audience. God, that’s so good. I love it. All right, the next one is for when the plan everyone approved yesterday is suddenly not quite the direction.

00:24:22 Paul: HMM. HMM. It’s like when you’re lost in the woods and you think. You think you’re on. You figured out how to get out. And then you see that you like. Suddenly you walk past the tree stump. You walk past three hours ago and you’re like, oh God, no, I’m going in a big circle.

00:24:46 Frank Butler: That is actually a great metaphor right there, isn’t it? Uh, the response was absolutely. I’ll, I’ll let yesterday’s strategy know. She had a beautiful eighteen hours. Sure did. Oh, God. Okay. Um, this one, this one’s this one’s chock full of gold as well. For when you’re, quote, stretch opportunity quietly

00:25:16 Paul: MM.

00:25:16 Frank Butler: becomes an entire second job.

00:25:22 Paul: Sadly, my stretch paycheck has not evolved

00:25:26 Frank Butler: Oh,

00:25:27 Paul: to

00:25:27 Frank Butler: there

00:25:27 Paul: match the

00:25:28 Frank Butler: you go.

00:25:28 Paul: second

00:25:28 Frank Butler: You are on

00:25:29 Paul: job.

00:25:29 Frank Butler: it. You are on it. You nailed it, man. Absolutely. Is this additional salary invisible to.

00:25:37 Paul: Yeah.

00:25:40 Frank Butler: Just checking the full package. That’s the. You are on it, buddy. That was that was, uh.

00:25:48 Paul: I’m getting the I’m getting the like whoever put this together, I think I’m getting the vibe now.

00:25:52 Frank Butler: Yep, yep. Um. Uh, for when your three sentence answer somehow requires thirty minutes and a screen share. Oh, gosh. Oh.

00:26:08 Paul: I gotta say, I don’t know that I can personally relate to this one.

00:26:12 Frank Butler: I this is one of those that this should, this meeting should have been an email and then that email

00:26:16 Paul: Yeah.

00:26:16 Frank Butler: meeting and you’re like, and I know that I’ve encountered this in some cases before and I know some others who have, but it’s like the response and I and I and all of this happy to jump on a quick call. Which part of my email should I read aloud? I’m pretty sure I covered it all in the email. So why are we, you know, uh, it goes back to the jargon stuff in a lot of ways too. It’s like, oh, now I have to. Mhm.

00:26:46 Paul: Yep. Yep. I wasn’t going to compete with that one. I, I guess I’ve been sort of fortunate, but I can totally see that scenario playing out.

00:26:55 Frank Butler: I’ve, I’ve had it a few times and it’s just one of those I’m like, but it’s so clear in the email, I even give you the step

00:27:02 Paul: Yeah,

00:27:02 Frank Butler: by step guide. Do I

00:27:04 Paul: that’s

00:27:04 Frank Butler: need.

00:27:05 Paul: that’s why I wrote the email.

00:27:07 Frank Butler: Yeah, I folks,

00:27:08 Paul: Mhm.

00:27:10 Frank Butler: I sometimes just don’t like being on the phone or on Zoom. So.

00:27:17 Paul: And that’s the thing, you know, I don’t think it’s as common in our academic world as it was in the corporate domain, but it’s, it’s, there are still people in here that you can just tell they like being on conference calls.

00:27:32 Frank Butler: Um.

00:27:35 Paul: There’s no matter trivial enough to not warrant a setting up a conference call or Zoom call, whatever. I’m thinking of one specific example that predates the existence of Zoom, but that person was a conference call person. But yeah.

00:27:52 Frank Butler: The, the little ending on this one just it’s perfect. Same information now with faces.

00:27:59 Paul: Now. I have annoyed people. That wanted to be doing something else. Yes.

00:28:09 Frank Butler: Gosh, this is so good, man. Oh, God. This is this is also. And I and I will admit I’m sometimes guilty of doing this too. For when someone asks thoughts after the decision

00:28:21 Paul: Um.

00:28:21 Frank Butler: has been made.

00:28:24 Paul: HMM. After decisions made. That’s an important caveat there.

00:28:27 Frank Butler: That’s the important caveat there. And I and

00:28:28 Paul: Yeah.

00:28:28 Frank Butler: I’m making this every once in a while. I mean, just seldom. But then I think about

00:28:33 Paul: Right.

00:28:33 Frank Butler: the the the stupidity of saying that. And I go, oh, we already decided, you know.

00:28:39 Paul: Especially after the decisions made kind of calls to mind a Simpsons episode there at a writer’s conference. And the moderator says, I’ll now open the floor to a fawning praise and obvious questions like, what’s left to add at that point? You know, it’s like the decisions made thoughts. We’re so we’re so great for coming up with this idea. What do you want to hear?

00:29:01 Frank Butler: Yeah. I’m always like, ah, man, that hits me like, I can’t believe.

00:29:05 Paul: At least you have the self-awareness to know that you’ve done the thing.

00:29:09 Frank Butler: I’ve done the thing.

00:29:10 Paul: I don’t think that’s usually the case.

00:29:12 Frank Butler: Well, and you, you kind of touched on it when you were talking about your Simpsons thing. It’s like, great. Are we looking for my feedback or my agreement?

00:29:19 Paul: Yeah, exactly.

00:29:21 Frank Butler: Uh, just calibrating my enthusiasm. That’s the little I love these, I love the little like bit after it. I mean, it just.

00:29:30 Paul: Yeah. That’s the best part of these things.

00:29:33 Frank Butler: For. When someone asks whether the wildly optimistic timeline is, quote, achievable. It’s going to be good.

00:29:43 Paul: Achievable in the sense that some. Yeah, we will the timeline will happen. I don’t know if the work will get done in that time frame, but that’s all I got. I

00:29:55 Frank Butler: You’re.

00:29:55 Paul: can, I, I know there’s something better that like I could come up with if you had like another minute. But yeah, that’s all I got off the top

00:30:02 Frank Butler: You’re

00:30:02 Paul: of my head.

00:30:02 Frank Butler: you’re you’re you’re setting this up perfectly. Absolutely. Would you like the realistic answer or the one that fits on PowerPoint?

00:30:14 Paul: That’s a good one. I thought I was going to go in a different direction, I think. Or should that be like wildly optimistic also. But yeah.

00:30:22 Frank Butler: Choose your own adventure. That’s the.

00:30:25 Paul: Choose your own adventure.

00:30:28 Frank Butler: Just I just, I just oh, these are these are killing me, man. Uh, and then this this one, um, is the last one, but it’s for when someone presents your idea in a meeting. Like it arrived to them in a dream.

00:30:44 Paul: I had that same dream too.

00:30:47 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:30:47 Paul: It

00:30:47 Frank Butler: You’re

00:30:47 Paul: was. It was last week’s meeting that you weren’t

00:30:49 Frank Butler: dead.

00:30:49 Paul: at.

00:30:50 Frank Butler: Hey, nice look at you. Ooh! Bring it

00:30:53 Paul: Yeah.

00:30:54 Frank Butler: back. Oh, that was good. Absolutely.

00:30:56 Paul: That sort of kind of ties back to the first thing or the second one, the

00:30:59 Frank Butler: Right.

00:31:00 Paul: meeting you weren’t at. Yeah.

00:31:02 Frank Butler: It. It says absolutely. Should I pretend this is the first time I’m hearing about it, too? What a beautiful coincidence.

00:31:12 Paul: Beautiful. It actually calls to mind a real life thing that happened earlier this week relating to the editorial stuff I’ve been involved with, where me and my co-editor had this brilliant idea of like, a solution to a problem, let’s just say, because otherwise it gets long and boring and, uh, really felt pretty good about ourselves for like three days. And then I happened to be looking through some old stuff and something written by a previous editor of the journal, laying out the exact plan that we had just come up with like five years ago. Oh, God. Like, so someone else had the exact same idea. And then there’s the slightly haunting, like codicil that apparently it didn’t work. You know, five years later it was tried and I guess didn’t succeed, I don’t know. So not only were we not as original as we thought, but what we came up with may have been a, a, a dud. Someone else tried five years ago.

00:32:13 Frank Butler: It feels like that whole. Absolutely. I’ll let the. Yesterday’s strategy. No.

00:32:17 Paul: Yes. Yeah. Yep. I’ll let five years idea know that you you just revived it.

00:32:26 Frank Butler: Well, you you might have actually done it better than what the original editor did.

00:32:31 Paul: Who knows?

00:32:31 Frank Butler: Considering

00:32:31 Paul: Yeah.

00:32:32 Frank Butler: the original editor maybe might have gone off the rails a little bit.

00:32:36 Paul: This was prior to

00:32:37 Frank Butler: Oh,

00:32:37 Paul: any

00:32:37 Frank Butler: it’s even before

00:32:38 Paul: going

00:32:38 Frank Butler: that.

00:32:38 Paul: off of rails. But um. Yeah, it it doesn’t. Yeah. It’s just one of those things where like you think that you’ve like cracked the code and then you find out that the code has already been cracked. Like maybe it’s still a good idea, but.

00:32:55 Frank Butler: Yeah. It’s funny how

00:32:56 Paul: I guess

00:32:56 Frank Butler: we.

00:32:56 Paul: I’m sympathizing with the, with the, you know, the, the stooge in that scenario, the one, the one we’re supposed to be making fun of was, was me.

00:33:08 Frank Butler: Well, it’s kind of amusing how all this stuff works out, though. Um, it’s just. Yeah, it’s one of the, this, this is one of the challenges and this would probably be a good episode at some point is talking about like laying off some of your long tenured folks and losing the historical aspect of things And why you. I think larger companies should always have a a historian on site, you know, that keeps track of all this and, um.

00:33:35 Paul: That would be a good episode, because it’s a weird thing that I think about sometimes that you often hear these stories about like, we’re like doomed. Like everyone who knew how to do this just got canned. Like, what are we gonna do? And then somehow they get through it, you know, like somehow the company still exists years later. So it’s like they figured something out. But what did that involve and how much did it suck? You know, it’s there’s a lot to go into there.

00:33:58 Frank Butler: I’m wondering like how much of it sucked and how much did it hinder their growth in a positive way? Like how much did it slow down where they were going from a momentum

00:34:07 Paul: Right.

00:34:07 Frank Butler: standpoint? Right.

00:34:08 Paul: That’s the thing I kind of wonder, like, usually whoever’s telling you that doesn’t want to hear the, the counterargument, it’s like maybe all that institutional knowledge was leading you in the wrong direction.

00:34:19 Frank Butler: Now there is that, that, that flip side, right? Because I think

00:34:21 Paul: Yeah.

00:34:21 Frank Butler: there is this thing about inertia versus

00:34:23 Paul: Inertia.

00:34:24 Frank Butler: momentum

00:34:24 Paul: Yeah.

00:34:24 Frank Butler: and.

00:34:25 Paul: Yeah. And, you know, escalation of commitment and all that stuff

00:34:28 Frank Butler: Oh,

00:34:28 Paul: that

00:34:28 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:34:28 Paul: you know.

00:34:28 Frank Butler: Exactly. You know, all that fancy buzzword stuff that we love? No,

00:34:32 Paul: Mhm.

00:34:32 Frank Butler: but I think there’s there’s something to that. Right. I do think there’s some interesting avenues we could devolve into in that discussion, both pros and cons. Right? And

00:34:40 Paul: Yep.

00:34:40 Frank Butler: I mean, I generally don’t like the idea of layoffs. I think it’s unfortunate because.

00:34:44 Paul: Yeah. The pro side is not going to be very popular with a lot of people. Here’s why you should lay off your your

00:34:51 Frank Butler: I

00:34:52 Paul: longest tenured employees.

00:34:53 Frank Butler: right. And I think there’s ways of getting around making those changes without getting rid of people. Right. I mean, I think that’s

00:34:59 Paul: Right.

00:34:59 Frank Butler: if you’ve read any of the Kotter’s books, you know, The Heart of Change and those kinds of things,

00:35:03 Paul: Yeah.

00:35:03 Frank Butler: he talks about all these ways that you can do that without firing people, so, so

00:35:07 Paul: Right.

00:35:07 Frank Butler: to speak.

00:35:08 Paul: It’s true.

00:35:08 Frank Butler: Uh, but, but at the other end, like, you know, if your firm really is in trouble, then it’s, you know, you’ve got to do something to help cut costs. Uh, but at the same time, I do think you got to be very mindful that you’re getting rid of people, that you spend a lot of time and effort hiring, training, You know, and I think most of them are willing to change if you’re putting their job at threat, I’m sure they’d

00:35:28 Paul: Right.

00:35:29 Frank Butler: tell me what I need to do so I can keep my job.

00:35:33 Paul: And, you know, I mean, yeah, there’s a lot there. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe the gut instinct is always to want to keep your job, obviously, but, you know, maybe someone else has an opening for you being you and

00:35:49 Frank Butler: Right.

00:35:50 Paul: you’d be happier there anyway. Who knows,

00:35:51 Frank Butler: Well,

00:35:51 Paul: you

00:35:51 Frank Butler: there

00:35:51 Paul: know?

00:35:51 Frank Butler: is that idea of organizational fit, right? That fit the person

00:35:54 Paul: Yeah, yeah,

00:35:55 Frank Butler: fit.

00:35:55 Paul: yeah.

00:35:55 Frank Butler: That absolutely applies.

00:35:56 Paul: Because like the, the fit can, you can have a good, you can be a good fit and then something changes and you’re not a good fit anymore.

00:36:03 Frank Butler: I think that’s another episode, right? Like,

00:36:05 Paul: Yeah.

00:36:06 Frank Butler: why do people stick to their jobs?

00:36:08 Paul: Yeah. There’s inertia on both sides really.

00:36:11 Frank Butler: Is inertia on both sides? I think that’s a good point. Um, there, there are some positives. And actually I’m doing a study right now, uh, on looking at layoffs and sort of the reputational impact on firms. And we’re using Reddit post as the foundation to get this qualitative data. And, uh, and so, you know, we have certain requirements that go in there, but, you know, our first cut before we started focusing on the firm side, the firm reputation side was we have quite a few that were like, I am so thankful that they laid me off. I was miserable in that job. I just kept doing it, you know, for whatever reason. And they were able to find another job. Now, that’s not been as much the case more recently with the ever increasing amount of layoffs. But there were some examples, though, that where people were actually relieved to have it happen, they found something that was maybe a better fit for them. It kind of reminds me of office space right at the end of office space. He’s doing

00:37:08 Paul: Mhm.

00:37:08 Frank Butler: road work instead of the corporate

00:37:10 Paul: Mhm.

00:37:10 Frank Butler: job, and he seems

00:37:11 Paul: Mhm.

00:37:11 Frank Butler: ultimately

00:37:12 Paul: He’s so much

00:37:12 Frank Butler: happy.

00:37:12 Paul: happier. Yeah.

00:37:13 Frank Butler: Yeah, right.

00:37:15 Paul: Yeah. It’s like anything else. Like a bad relationship. Boyfriend, girlfriend. That’s, like, just kind of a dud, and they kick you to the curb and you’re like, oh my God, this sucks. And then a year later, you’re like, so much happier. You’re like, okay, that was actually something I needed.

00:37:34 Frank Butler: These are some good ideas we should talk about at some point.

00:37:37 Paul: At some point.

00:37:39 Frank Butler: But for now.

00:37:40 Paul: Play the outro.

00:37:43 Frank Butler: I don’t have it on here, but I’ll add it in post. And, uh,

00:37:46 Paul: All right.

00:37:47 Frank Butler: thank you everybody. Have a great one. We’ll see

00:37:50 Paul: Have

00:37:51 Frank Butler: you

00:37:51 Paul: a great

00:37:51 Frank Butler: soon.

00:37:51 Paul: one. We’ll be back. Bye. We have to be back with another episode much quicker than last time,

00:37:57 Frank Butler: That’s

00:37:58 Paul: so

00:37:58 Frank Butler: right.

00:37:58 Paul: we’ll be back soon.

00:37:59 Frank Butler: We’ll be back soon. And actually, this is going to be pretty fast. We’ll get this canned up and out.

00:38:03 Paul: Yeah.

00:38:03 Frank Butler: And it doesn’t matter because by the time you listen to this, it’ll be out, so it won’t matter. Uh, but the, the episode

00:38:08 Paul: Good point.

00:38:09 Frank Butler: will go very quickly, largely because it’s live and all the flubs and blubs and whatever else goes with it will be part of it. And, you know, it’s gonna be great. So good day, everybody.

00:38:20 Paul: Good day everybody.